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The Ranged Advantage and How it Creates Imbalance
Hello all, this thread is meant to be a discussion around one of Paragon's biggest issues that needs addressed. Before I dive in, please note that I'm in the top 3% of time played so far. In other words, I have experience to back up my assessment. I have also played a variety of champions and a variety of builds that have been theory crafted. So with all that, here is my reasoning for why the ranged heroes in Paragon, specifically the auto-attack carry heroes, have an advantage and it has created an imbalance:
Every single auto-attack carry has a higher base attack scale than every melee hero. This would be fine if melee characters who are meant to be fighters had a decent amount more health and or armor by end game. However this is not the case. If a Feng Mao and a TwinBlast are both built to do strictly damage (for the sake of this argument) the difference in health at end game will be about 250 HP. Also, TwinBlast will hit harder and faster. So let's play out this scenario:
TwinBlast is a ranged character with an escape. Feng Mao is a melee character with a gap closer (can be used as an escape as well). Feng Mao cannot use the gap closer to initiate a fight because Twinblast can escape and auto attack Feng to death. Even if the Feng uses his gap closer, slows, and then TwinBlast uses his escape, TwinBlast will win that fight the majority of the time. Same can be said of Murdock who has a knock back with his shield. Same can be said of Grim with his knock back. The only carry it cannot be said of is Sparrow.
If Feng can't use the gap closer to initiate then the player must try and sneak up on TwinBlast. The faster way to do this is while in travel mode, which is exceptionally risky because if the carry see's you at all and you get rooted while trying to not use your gap closer, you are dead. And the reason you don't use the gap closer to initiate is so that you can use it when the carry uses their escape. Even still, I have built full damage and caught a Murdock off guard who also built full damage, and he knocks back, and I gap close in only to be killed. Obviously this requires the player to be a decent shot with Murdock. But shooting Melee characters isn't hard at all.
So not only do ranged carries hit harder, and many have an escape mechanic, they also get the possibility of having a long range root to prevent melee characters from getting them to them in the first place. They also have nearly identical base health (Grux, Feng Mao, Kallari is a joke in health). So if a melee character is built to have more health they must sacrifice damage and once again the carry will easily win the battle 1 v 1.
This is one of the only MOBA's I have ever played that doesn't balance the ranged advantage by having melee fighters hit as hard or harder than carries or gives them significantly more health to compensate for the fact they have to walk up to a carry who has an escape and get poked in the process.
I understand you can build heroes who primarily tanks as fighters, but that doesn't really change anything, it just makes the process a little longer. A good carry with an escape mechanic such as dash or knock back (especially one using a mouse) will ALWAYS have an advantage over a melee character who has a closer of some kind until the melee fighters are balanced.
One solution to this would be to remove the root effect of being shot in travel mode while over 50% health for all melee characters. This would grant them the ability to get to a carry while still taking some damage. The other alternative is to grant melee fighters more health or just as much damage scaling, or better utility abilities.
For anyone who thinks I simply need to LTP, you can save your breath and time. I've played both melee and ranged characters in this game and in other MOBA's and I can without a doubt and with complete confidence say ranged carries have an advantage in this MOBA.
@rev_pd, hi there. Talking about 1v1 TB vs. Feng you are correct. I'd say I see it uncommon for Feng to approach TwinB 1-on-1 and win it if both are of the same skill.
However if you are talking about balance then it's not only a topic of 1v1 duels. It's about teams. And in this area TwinB and Feng plays different roles. You just can't compare them the way you do I think.
It's like comparing infantry and archers. One archer is gonna win the fight nearly always if starting distance is far. But there is a reason why generals wanted to have both branches in their army :)
While both play different roles within a team fight, the ranged hero will still have the advantage, especially with good teams. In order for me as melee to have a chance in a small or large team fight requires Muriel and or a tank who is doing really really well at peeling. Even then, if the ranged heroes have their Ults, the same problem of closing in a team fight applies. As is, the game gives more mechanics and advantages to the ranged characters. Take Grim for example. Grim can stand in the back line (archer) of a team fight and still do more damage with same amount of health as a melee (infantry) in the team fight (especially with Grim's let). The whole comparison of archers to infantry actually confirms my argument, don't infantry usually get MORE armor since they are FRONT LINE fighters? Just not in Paragon, both front line and back line basically get the same amount of health and armor as base stats, and therefore the imbalance continues.
@rev_pd, so are you comparing ranged carries with tanks or fighters?
For me, he compare ranged carries with melee carries (fighter) and said that the fact that the ranged can survive more easily because they have more damage potential than the melee, if the ranged know that the melee is here (super easily to know because you're a team and you can place ward). So to balance that fact he think give more health or armor to the melee heroes can make him survive more time and give him more chance to get closer to the ranged and hit him.
If you want to understand why this can be broken just think about that : A full ranged team vs a full melee team : what if anytime a melee champ get close to the ranged team they just escape or push him away ? How can the melee team do them enough damage to kill them and survive ?
I didn't played a lot but this fact happen to me a lot of time as Sevarog versus murdock or Grim because Sevarog is super slow so if he can't get close to hit and try kill him: he just die as a snail under the hail.
Ps: of course Sevarog can use his ult to bump him away but that was not the point ^^
@Wildos, Seva is a tank. He isn't to follow a running carry. He is to absorb damage allowing allied carry to do the job. That's why I'm asking for a specific topic to be called out. If we are to compare then let it be apples with apples.
And one more point. IMHO Fighter is not the Hero to have an ability to sustain damage while closing the gap b/w him and an enemy carry. This way nothing is enough.
I do not totally disagree with the topic in general. But from what I see in game neither Feng nor Grux is weak. Yes, they die pretty often, yes they can be juked. But they do their job disrupting enemy team and they do this very well.
@George, Yes Sevarog is a tank so his role is not chasing and killing enemy but being a tank who can't close gap between him and ranged hero is a difficult thing when you have to defend a tower, if you can't get close you can't do damage and you just stay here hitting minion while he hit you.
I'm ok with the fact that all heroes are good at their job but I concede that the ranged heroes have more survive potential than the melee one when it's about fight versus others heroes.
Not sure of my English here, so excuse me if it's not understandable.
Melee don't just serve as damage dealers, but as interrupters, forcing ranged characters to reposition themselves and take their targets away from their primary targets...Sure they could use more health, but theyre not at a disadvantage. MOBA's arent about 1v1 battles, its a 5v5.
@Wildos, Sevarog has a gap closer btw
@Rholan, yes but if he use his E and the ennemy use his bump away ability he have to wait the cooldown because he his too slow to get close by running.
@Notboutdatlife (not verified), Yes I agree but if the melee team can't get close to the ranged team, they just take damage (yes game with a full melee or a full ranged team happened to me and you have to use your brain like twice as usual to get close). And if you say "You can dodge ranged attack" : And how do you get close if you run in zigzag and he run straight ?
But as I said : "I'm ok with the fact that all heroes are good at their job but I concede that the ranged heroes have more survive potential than the melee one when it's about fight versus others heroes."
So yes in 1v1 ranged have advantage but it's a 5v5 (and we hope full melee don't happen too often ^^ )
@Wildos, ivwe plated way too many games where feng mao runs me down and kills me ez
@Rholan, More survive potential isn't a survive all the time thing, skill and circumstances can change the end of the fight. If he catch you by behind or just after your used your escape/bump away skill you just loose your better survive potential. I was talking about in circumstance where you are in front of each other and controlled by hardcore bot who never fail ^^ (which never happen because everybody fail sometimes)